With Waukesha South/Catholic Memorial and Hartland Arrowhead earning the top two seeded positions in the D1 state meet this Saturday:
http://wiscswim.blogspot.com/2010/02/div-1-state-meet-scored.html
it's worth asking the question:
Will the seed times earned by swimmers coming out of the Waukesha South/Catholic Memorial sectional (both teams swam there) hold up at the UW Natatorium?
I've explored this question before in some previous posts; see this link about last year's boys state meet:
http://wiscswim.blogspot.com/2009/02/about-that-waukesha-south-d1-sectional.html
Then there is this analysis about the Waukesh South sectional pool posted before last fall's girls state meet (which generated a lot of comments):
http://wiscswim.blogspot.com/2009/10/is-waukesha-south-pool-too-fast.html
In both cases (2009 boys state meet, as well as the 2008 girls state meet), several teams coming out of the Waukesha South sectional failed to maintain their seed placements. In addition, four of the six biggest seed placement drops (that is, swimmers not holding their seed placement) at the 2009 girls state meet came from teams that swam at the Waukesha South sectional -- Brookfield Central, Waukesha South/Mukwonago, Muskego and Hartland Arrowhead.
So, what gives? And will the same thing happen this year? Here are a few speculative answers and/or arguments:
-- As one coach told me this past fall, the UW Natatorium is the fastest pool most swimmers will swim in this year. That is, save for those who swim at the Waukesha South pool for sectionals. The WSouth pool is faster than the Nat, and thus swimmers coming from the sectional don't match their times (or, just as importantly for this argument, don't drop as much time as those from other sectionals).
-- The Waukesha South sectional is super-competitive, leaving coaches little choice but to taper or at least semi-taper many swimmers for the meet to give them a chance of making it to state. For the girls last fall, the Middleton sectional was arguably just about as competitive as the Waukesha South sectional. But this year for boys, WSouth was easily the deepest sectional in terms of swimmers qualifying for state.
-- It's easier for some swimmers -- particularly those from the Madison area -- to swim well at the Nat, because it's in effect a home meet, or close to it. In addition, Madison-area swimmers may have swum more often at the Nat, and thus are comfortable there (although it must be said that the Waukesha South/Catholic Memorial boys team won the Madison West Invite at the Nat this January.)
-- Other thoughts?
I'd welcome a reasoned debate about this via the comments section; I'd prefer that it not get into speculative discussion about who is or isn't tapered for state vs. sectionals (I've always thought that's hard to tell until swimmers actually swim the races.) I'd also prefer not to get into a discussion about which pools would make for a better state meet pool -- that's a different blog post.
Post away -- I'm moderating posts these days, and will put up any and all that provide some insight and candid observation on this.
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18 comments:
A few reasons contribute to the Waukesha sectional being so quick.
The first is obviously the fast pool. Not much more to say here.
Second, it helps that some of the schools have open enrollment which stacks the odds against other schools that don't have a history of great swimming. The swimmers who should be at those schools just go to other ones with a history of swimming.
Third, some of the coaches at the better high schools coach swimming year round. One team, in particular, has a coach which coaches the same group of guys all 12 months of the year. This allows for a continuous cycle of training that most other swimmers don't get.
Finally, the area has a large population density - more people, more swimmers, higher probability of better swimmers. This is also part of the reason why the Middleton sectional is usually one of the faster ones as well.
With regards to this possibility: "The Waukesha South sectional is super-competitive, leaving coaches little choice but to taper or at least semi-taper many swimmers for the meet to give them a chance of making it to state." This does not really make sense since besides the sectional winner, results of each sectional alone don't necessarily increase or decrease the chances of going to state. If the same swimmers at the Waukesha South sectional were spread throughout the state, other swimmers chances of making it to state would be the same as they are now.
"...some of the coaches at the better high schools coach swimming year round. One team, in particular, has a coach which coaches the same group of guys all 12 months of the year...."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't coaching your athletes in the offseason against WIAA rules?
I agree with the post above. If the Waukesha South sectional is in a faster pool with more top tier swimers, it seems like the other sectionals would need the taper to get in.
Everything that the first commentor stated I agree with. besides being just a "fast" pool, the waukesha south facility is overall better in several ways that benefit swimmers. It is much cooler in the pool area, and there is more seating room. The lane lines at south also are doubled up to prevent any disturbing waves during the race. Overall it is a better environment to perform in at a high level than the natatorium. People do drop significant amounts of time though from sectionals to state either way. The high level of competition surrounding a swimmer elevates their performance at a sectioanl like south's. At a sectional like marquette's the swimmers are in a much lower key atmosphere and therefore do not perform as quickly. These same swimmers get to state and are thrust into the high pressure, big stage situation that the middleton and waukesha south sectionals dealt with the week earlier. This increases performance more than anything in my opinion at state. If you look at history of wisconsin swimming regarding seedings you will notice that many lower seeded teams/swimmers won their sectiols to qualify in the first or second heats only to emerge on top or close to the top. I can think of many examples of this off the top of my head. Lucas Koenig last year. Marquette's medley relay with Will Colbert.
Couple other factors that go into it: There may well be levels of fast or slow pools across all the sectionals as great or greater than the difference between WS and the NAT. Is the difference between Middleton and Neenah the same as WS to Middleton? In D2, Baraboo v. Plymouth? The problem is that the format really is prelim final, just with the finals swum a week ahead, and at 10 different pools.
Unlike other tournament formats for the WIAA, where the two teams competing to advance are on the same field or court here the differences get magnified. So in baseball, if two teams play on a field with shorter fences or a faster infield, and two others play on a field with deeper fences, a team is only competing with the team on the same field. Its only in the individual sports of swimming and diving, cross country, and maybe track where the disparity in venue has such a large impact on who advances.
The solution is a state meet with prelim/finals in the same pool. Qualifying for the state meet can be done over the course of the season, thereby reducing, if not totally eliminating the advantages of fast versus slow pools.
Re. coaching contact -- this is from the WIAA's "Rules at a glance" from their website:
I. COACHES AND COACHING CONTACT
Coaches may not have coaching contact with any athletes they will be coaching the following school season during restricted times (except their own children). There is no distinction between
varsity and J.V. coaches, i.e., J.V. coaches cannot coach varsity athletes during restricted times, and vice-versa, nor any distinction between paid and nonpaid (volunteer) coaches. An exception is that varsity and J.V. coaches can have coaching contact with students who have just completed 8th grade or any preceding grade up until these 8th graders actually start their 9th grade year.
Coaching restrictions apply to all sports during the school year, except during the respective sport season. All sport coaches have five days of unrestricted coaching contact opportunity in the
summer, between the end of school and July 31; the days do not need to be consecutive. The 5 contact days must be the same for all levels within a sport program. In addition, coaching restrictions
do not apply in the summer beyond the 5 unrestricted days in the sports of baseball, cross country, golf, gymnastics, softball, swimming & diving, tennis, track & field and wrestling, the
summer being defined as when school is not in normal session, provided such nonschool programs are not limited to students on the basis of school or team affiliation. Other than during the
actual school season and as specifically approved in the summer, coaches may not have coaching contact with their athletes other than as listed above; including practicing or competing with athletes, driving athletes to nonschool competition, driving athletes to camps, clinics, etc., or having basically anything to do with the athletes’ nonschool participation. Further, coaches may not:
1. Mandate athletes participate in nonschool competition, or determine who may or may not participate in nonschool activity.
2. Require involvement in out-of-season activities as part of the requirements for making a school team, earning a school letter award, etc.
3. Provide incentives such as T-shirts, etc., for participation in the off-season.
A school coach must always be present when an athlete is participating in interscholastic competition. It is not acceptable for parents, or others, to take the place of the coach at school-sponsored competition, unless they meet WIAA coaching requirements and have the approval of the school administration.
I know that speculation is not what we are after - and I'll add some factual info as well.
Speculation - if you were to count the number of swimmers in the Wauk South sectional that swim year-round...I bet it would be shocking compared to other sections. Pretty much, as far as I can tell, to be that level of athlete in the water, you have to put in yards 11 months a year. The density of club programs in the S.E. Wisconsin area to feed these H.S. programs. Express, Schroeder, Elmbrook, New Berlin, Oz, SWAT, Northshore, Lake Country Phoenix, etc., that's a big feed.
And there's money. The programs are there, and there's money. Accessibility and cash. Open enrollment also plays, as has been said previously. New Berlin Eisenhower/West for instance, two of the top swimmers on Waukesha South H.S. are New Berlin residents that open enroll to Waukesha. If not for open enrollment, they would have scored points for NB.
Somewhat factually, it's got to be ebb and flow of power. None of the other sectionals will want anyone from the WSouth section - too powerful.
Fact - 18 of the 24 spots come from raw speed. Forget who wins at a section. Fastest goes to the Nat. That's what state is all about. The only swimmers who get slighted, are numbers 19 - 24 who's times beat section winners from slower sections. This year - it was a ridiculous section to swim in. My kid was in it. Great experience. Awesome meet. No regrets. He qualified individually at THAT sectional. That's something.
Last fact - there are coaches that fully taper their swimmers to compete at Sectionals. To have a prayer - they have to do this. Arrowhead probably has some partially tapered, but none even close to full taper. Those that were not as fast coming in to the sectional, now have to hold the taper for a week - which won't be optimal. So they'll likely swim off their seed. Plus the pressure, noise, etc.
@ pool buoy
Being a swimmer, I have to say I despise the Waukesha South pool for any large venue. While the pool may be faster, the air quality slightly better, and the temperature cooler, the atmosphere is terrible.
To begin, there is no pool deck space for just the swimmers. Ten feet behind the blocks parents and other spectators will be walking around, moving, coughing. In comparison to the Nat this is quite awful. Trust me, it's not fun to be getting ready for your race and look back and have your grandparents smiling at you. At the Nat the separation between athlete and spectator is perfect. Close enough that the athlete can feel the sound, feel the tension in the air, yet not so close that they become distracting and in the way.
Not to mention South can barely seat all the swimmers at a big meet comfortably, much less the swimmers and spectators.
However, I realize that this is getting off the original topic of why the sectional is so fast. To bring it back, it is against the rules (which Phil kindly posted) to coach your swimmers outside the highschool season. However this does not stop some coaches from doing it anyways, especially when no one else is going to go to the WIAA about it.
Any idea how the times stacked up before the WS pool was built? Were there patterns in how swimmers performed at state versus sectionals without the WS pool?
We noticed something similar in USA swimming with Zone meets. For many swimmers, the zone pool was the fastest pool they swam in all summer and there seemed to be more time drops. For swimmers from Wisconsin and Indiana especially, coming out of Schroeder and IUPUI, they had trouble holding their seed times in the pools in Topeka or Wichita. This is anecdotal, as I don't recall any detailed analysis, but it certainly was the impression.
Bringing it back around: "raw speed" and "fastest goes to the Nat" - But who is really fastest? Take the same swimmer, with the same taper etc, and swim him at WS and at Madison West (I know not a sectional site, but the oldest, slowest pool I could think of quickly). 99 times out of 100 the time at WS will be faster. Where the difference between 24th and 25th or 16th and 17th can be measured in hundreths of a second, a fast pool might mean that the fastest swimmer didn't get to the NAT.
You can't compare Zones to sectionals, first of all Zones is not a good meet for high school aged kids few fast kids go and sectionals few elite swimmers taper for it.
Lets all remember that this is a high school sporting event. All of the athletes competing are exceptional. The dedication required in swimming is unlike any other sport. The kids will put on a great show for their families, friends and schools. We as parents should just sit back, enjoy and cheer on every kid. It will be an awesome experience for all involved.
Good point with the parental separation. I am all for that. I was in no way arguing which is better for the state meet. In that regard I would change nothing. The better atmosphere for simply racing is what I was talking about, and as a swimmer, I can attest to South as the better pool. The intensity of the Nat, the din of the crowd is what makes it truly special.
Sure there are fast pools out there. Waukesha South, UW-Whitewater, the Schroeder facility and the NAT all have proven to be fast pools.
What really matters though is performance. If you look at the percentage of best times at Olympic Trials or USA Nationals you'll find a low number of improvement.
Perhaps the WIAA State Meet is becoming the same way. More and more athletes are having to taper to get in the championship meet.
Each athlete performs differently after a taper. Some are "one and done" and others can "hold on" longer. Then there are some that really don't taper much at all maybe just a three day rest.
Some of the "holding on" to a taper has to do with the individuals training base. Although some is the athletes fortitude to mental, physical and emotional training.
There really is no true way of telling if it is the pool or the taper. I say this because only the athlete and their coaches know how much they truely rested to get into the state meet.
The point on zones was not really directed at high school swimmers, as I agree most swimmers that age don't go to zones. It was the 11-12 and 13-14 swimmers that we were noticing. As mentioned, its purely anecdotal, but it did seem to support the idea that if a swimmer qualifies in a fast pool, then swims a championship event in a slower pool, the swimmer may have a harder time holding their seed time than a swimmer in the reverse situation.
I don't get the parent separation comment. For sectionals at Waukesha South, fans sit on one side, swimmers on the other side and starting blocks on the end of the pool, between the stands.
Having coached in Wisconsin and now in Minnesota, the problem could just be format. In MN, you have to swim a state qualifying time to get into the meet, but if no one in an event at sections makes a q-time, the top 2 finishers in an event get to attend the meet.
The section meet and state meet are both prelims/finals. This levels the field at each meet.
Just my 2 cents!
The pool should have no determination in how fast a sectional is because people always believe that the newer pool is fast once major meets are there and records are broken. The teams in each sectional should determine if it is fast or not.
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