The sectional psych sheets are posted on the WIAA website under "boys swimming" -- try this link: http://www.wiaawi.org/index.php?id=438
We'll do some digging into them and post observations later tonight.
UPDATE -- A few observations:
-- Only one defending state champ -- Danny Brebrick of Wausau East -- won't be defending his title in that event this year. Brebrick, who won the 100 free last year swimming out of lane 1 in the final heat, opted instead for the 200 and 500 frees this year. He has the top seed in each event at the Hudson sectional. Six other defending state champs -- Michael Drives of Madison Memorial (D1 200 free), Tyler Lentz of Sauk Prairie/Wisconsin Heights (D1 200 IM), Matt Friede of Sauk (D1 50 free), Brian Heiser of McFarland (D2 200 free), Drew teDuits of Madison Edgewood (D2 100 backstroke), and Alex Riegert of Delavan-Darien (100 breaststroke) -- are back in those events this year.
-- How fast will swimmers need to be in Division 1 to qualify for the final heat of the 500 free? 4:45? With eight swimmers currently seeded at 4:50.21 or faster -- including five competing at the very fast Waukesha South pool -- going under 4:45 may be what it takes to swim the final heat. Noah Potratz of Waukesha South/Catholic Memorial leads the way with a seed time of 4:41.62, with Drives of Memorial -- he of the 4:29.98 second-place effort from last year's state meet -- looming with the second-fastest seed. How fast has the 500 free gotten in D1 this year? Bobby Wolf of Muskego, fourth last year at state, is seeded 6th in his sectional. This is maybe the deepest race in either division this year.
-- Earning a sectional top seed as a freshman doesn't occur all that often, so it's worth noting that Eau Claire's Alex DeLakis earned top seeds in both his events at the Hudson sectional -- the 200 IM and 100 breaststroke. His 59.18 in the 100 breaststroke leads all D1 breaststrokers.
-- The Michael Drives/Tyler Lentz dual in the 200 IM won't happen. The two seniors are the last two swimmers to win the IM at the D1 state meet. Both chose to defend their current titles -- Drives in the 200 free, Lentz in the 200 IM.
-- But the Derek Toomey/Matt Friede show will go on, as the two seniors from Verona/Mount Horeb and Sauk continue their season-long duel at the Middleton sectional. They'll match up in both the 50 and 100 frees, with Friede holding the top seed in the 50 free and Toomey the top seed in the 100 free. In a 100 free field at Middleton with three other swimmers seeded under 50 seconds, the pair own the two fastest seed times by more than two seconds.
-- How deep is the Div. 2 sectional at Baraboo? Very. At the Small School State Invitational two weeks ago at Plymouth, there was some speculation among coaches and fans that the Baraboo sectional might produce every single D2 state champ this year. This year, Baraboo sectional divers, swimmers and relays own the top overall seed times in the state save for one -- the 400 free relay, presumably anchored by Wisconsin recruit Chuckie Prestigiacomo, of Whitefish Bay. Five of the top 10 D2 teams in the lastest WISCA coaches poll will be at Baraboo.
-- Maybe it's time for the WIAA to re-think the D1 Marquette (formerly Nicolet) sectional, held this year at the Brown Deer Schroeder Aquatic Center. The sectional includes mostly Milwaukee City Conference co-op teams, plus a few close-in suburban teams. But when a sectional can't even fill one complete heat of events (200 IM, 500 free) and only muster five relays for the meet-ending 400 free relay, something ought to be adjusted. Some solid D1 squads -- notably Menomonee Falls/Germantown/Hamilton and Mequon Homestead -- are closer to Schroeder than the incredibly deep Waukesha South sectional they are sent to; why can't the WIAA do some simple geographic adjustments to maintain some competitive balance? It's done so in other sports, notably football come playoff time. UPDATE: It looks like Milwaukee Riverside has now added their entries to the sectional, but with no times.
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23 comments:
How close is the Waukesha South Sectional?
Scored to the Psych sheet (swimmers finish at their seeds), Arrowhead beats South by a final score of 345 to 340. Going into the final relay, the score stands Arrowhead 305, South 306.
Obviously this likely won't prove to be the case this Saturday, but it will still be an incredible meet.
Regarding the Marquette sectional--I couldn't agree more! Not only will the meet have very little time between events, but top swimmers don't have much competition. With the South sectional so fast, these guys really have to be motivated to get into the final heat at the state meet.
Re. the Marquette sectional at Schroeder: It's not just the inability to fill out heats, the lack of multiple heats, and the lack or rest time between events. The sectional has some very good swimmers -- Kuriga and Bastien of Marquette, Utech of Tosa -- but they are arguably penalized because they will be swimming in a much slower sectional than their peers. Most sectionals provide some level of top-flight competition that spurs on faster times and a better seed position at the state meet. It's a difficult balance -- you can't really expect four swimmers to come out of each of the six sectionals in every event -- but the Marquette sectional stands out relative to the others in D1.
I agree, but they are swimming at schroeder which is easily the fastest pool.
Faster than Waukesha South?
OK, let's assume Schroeder is the faster pool for the sake of argument....we are left with two scenarios 1) fast pool, extremely fast swimmers, excited atmosphere; and 2)faster pool, little to no competition, few spectators.
I don't think any swimmer would prefer (and swim faster in) option two.
Yeah, I think Schroeder is faster. World Records have been set at Schroeder. Waukesha can't say that. If they swim short course in the deep end, WSAC has the edge I think.
One other issue with the "short" sectionals is that you run a greater risk of having sectional winners who are not in the top 16 or 24 fastest times.
Not much competition for GF/GD at their Sectional either. Homestead will drive past Schroeder on their way to Waukesha South. Menomonee Falls isn't all that far from Schroeder either.
Something has to change next year.
While not as shallow as the Marquette sectional the Stevens point sectional best seeds in the 200 im is a 2:14 and in the 100 fly is 1:00. All while the Baraboo sectional is stacked.
Division two sectionals are expected to be weaker then division one it is not that hard to understand. And schroeder is a very fast pool to have a sectional
G/G team will not win their sectional. They will win 5 individual event & 3 relays but not much after that. G/G has no entries in events 10 & 11. They were 2nd to Case @ Bradford invite.
This is true, the top seeds in the 200 IM and 100 Fly in Stevens Pt. would be seeded 12th in both events at the Baraboo Sectional. It seems that, again, someone with a faster time may get left out because of a slower sectional winnner.
It is a fact that the Marquette sectional does have to change. Regardless of the pool, year in and year out there is always some kid who does not deserve to go to state who ends up qualifying (no offense its just the truth). Last year it was the 200 IM. This year its going to be several events are much slower then what should qualify for state. The 200 free, 200 IM, 100 butterfly, 500 free and 200 free relay are producing times that should not be close to qualifying for a state meet. Most of the kids at the meet dont even have to taper to make it in there events. Sectionals should be switched around to make every one competitive.
"It seems that, again, someone with a faster time may get left out because of a slower sectional winnner."
Div. 2 has not had an automatic qualifier (sectional winner) qualify with a slower time than the 16th fastest swimmer at sectionals in four years, according to the WIAA's qualifying standards from 2006-2009. In other words, all sectional winners would've gotten in regardless.
Div. 1 had two slower automatic qualifiers last year -- 500 free and 100 back. It had two in 2008 -- 500 free and 100 breaststroke. It had two in 2007 -- 200 free and 500 free. It had none in 2006 (again, from WIAA qualifying standards posted over the years).
Pretty clear trend -- very good 500 swimmers, for whatever reason, tend to be clustered of late in a few sectionals in D1.
Ask currentt club or HS swimmers if they would rather risk the end of their season on swims at Waukesha South or at Schroeder...my guess is the vast (and I do mean VAST) majority of them would choose to let it all ride at South...super fast pool every single time!!
"Ask currentt club or HS swimmers if they would ra... "Ask currentt club or HS swimmers if they would rather risk the end of their season on swims at Waukesha South or at Schroeder...my guess is the vast (and I do mean VAST) majority of them would choose to let it all ride at South...super fast pool every single time!!"
Being a current HS and club swimmer, and having been swimming in Wisconsin for almost eleven years now, I can tell you I'd easily choose Schroader. Not only is it just as fast, if not faster, than Wauakasha, there is actually deck space and dedicated bleachers for the swimmers. Trust me, it's not a very fun meet when your parents are four feet away.
Besides, the whole idea of a sectional pool being faster than the state pool, as both Schroader, Waukasha, and the new pool that's just opening up for a sectional, really works to ruin the state meet. How many people did we see go excellent times at sectionals only to add seconds to their qualifying time at state? These past two years that number has been much higher than years before. The most staggeringly high numbers come from the Waukasha sectional, guys and girls.
In order to fix the state meet we need either sex sectionals, all in pools of relatively equal speed, or a Friday afternoon prelims, Saturday afternoon finals meet at the Nat (which, as any swimmer can tell you, is the only place which can create the kind of atmosphere that makes State so special). Have a cut off time for the prelims meet, take the top 16 (or 24) for finals.
Whatever happens though, get rid of the automatic entry for the sectional winner. Completely unnecessary and I'm tired of seeing my friends and teammates get knocked out of state because someone just happened to be in a slower sectional.
i agree with the person above this post. get rid of the sectional winner. It is pointless your times should determine if you make it to state or not.
WIAA will not get rid of the Automatic Qualifier Sectional Winner. The WIAA likes the whole state represented. Sure it isn't fair when a faster time is kept out of the state meet but the same argument can me made in all sports.
Take a look at wrestling for an example. How often has Hartford lost to Arrowhead in the sectional meet. I remember recently when both teams were ranked in the top three but only one got to make the special trip to Madison.
Take a look at boys basketball for another example. Usually the best basketball in the state is played in the Milwaukee City Conference or near by. How often has Milwaukee King lost to Milwaukee Vincent in the Sectional Final or Wauwatosa East lost to Milwaukee Washington.
The reason that sectional winners get to go to state is that the WIAA insists on shoehorning swimming into the tournament format of the "ball sports". Football, basketball, volleyball and soccer all have the structure of regionals/sectionals etc as way stations on the road to state. They also award trophies for sectional and regional winners. So that's what they do in swimming as well, whether it makes any sense or not. Listen closely and you'll hear the WIAA officials refer to the state swimming tournament, not the state meet.
Regular season and state swimming are almost like two different sports as it is. Two years ago when East won girls state, they lost a bunch of dual meets, even though they often won 10 or all 11 of the events. They also finished THIRD at their sectional.
I think Prelim-final is the way to go. We sort of have that now, only the prelims are a week before the finals, they keep score at premlims, and the screwy sectional winners rule.
All good comments; this topic came up during the girls season as well.
I think a simple solution - rather than overhauling the entire process with a prelims/finals format -- would be to have the WIAA do some tinkering with sectional assignments at some point toward the end of the swim season, while maintaining its tradition (one I actually agree with) of wanting to have geographical representation at the state meet. (They do every season in football.)
Especially with the Schroeder and Greenfield pools being easily accessible to the Milwaukee metro-area teams, it would seem you could get a more competitive balance among the WSouth/Greenfield/Marquette sectionals than what happened this year. D2 is a bit more difficult, because of having only four sectionals, but even some tinkering there (leaving Berlin/Green Lake at Point rather than switching them over to Plymouth) would've helped with competitive balance.
The Waukesha South sectional, in my mind, is the most problematic, because I assume most coaches want their swimmers competing at sectionals at that pool, even if they have no chance of winning a sectional team title, because the pool is so fast and the competition is so good, which presumably helps your chances of getting out. But it also carries the risk of seeing a swimmer nudged aside by a sectional qualifier with a slower time.
"Ask current club or HS swimmers if they would rather risk the end of their season on swims at Waukesha South or at Schroeder...my guess is the vast (and I do mean VAST) majority of them would choose to let it all ride at South...super fast pool every single time!!"
Yes, I think there are almost NO top swimmers who would rather swim where there is no competition, regardless of the facility. South and Schroeder are both fast pools....but no competition, combined with automatic qualifiers for sectional winners, that's the reason we need WIAA to change the format.
The WIAA needs to change its format because swimming is not like other sports and the swimmers who are suppose to make it to state do not due to sectional winners taking their places. When a sectional winner is seeded 5 or even 10 seconds slower in a 500 they have no right to be swimming at a state meet.
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